Touché to Rehab Director's Sloganeering

Very informative site. I've spent over 3 hours there the last two nights each. I hate AA. I didn't start to recover from a devestating series of personal tragedies that culminated in extremely heavy drinking until I found LifeRing, and reclaimed my sense of personal empowerment.

My shrink tried to get me enrolled in a 12-Step out-patient program, but the Director and I had an immediate falling out. I asked if the program was AA-based, and Director said it was. Whereupon, I told him such a program could not work for me because confessing my sins to virtual strangers and self-flagellation are not my things. Nor do I believe that my problems and faults will be removed by a god.

Oh-so-surprisingly he replied: "Your best thinking got you here." I literally laughed out loud, and said "Canned AA rebuttal 6(B)," and walked out.

What a bunch of putrid fucks. I mean, I guess for those AA can keep sober, I am happy for them. But the price is to lose huge chunks of your personhood. For someone like me, the self-loathing that would induce really would make drinking likely.

Again, great job on the site.

Mona

AA member chooses "AA Lite"

WOW, what a revelation! I was turned on to your site by a fellow member of AA and my nose has been glued to my computer screen for hours. You are verbalizing ideas that I have been thinking about but not saying for some time. I am a current member of AA and haven't had a drink (or wanted to) in 2 years. I've been in AA for a total of 14 years of my adult life and have seen a lot of real screwed up stuff. It's about time someone had the guts to cut down the sacred cows of AA. Ideas like powerlessness, acceptance being the answer to ALL my problems, everything being the way it's supposed to be, neurotic self examination to see where you're "wrong" etc. all ring hollow when you look at how these ideas actually work in real life. They have done nothing but make me feel hopeless and depressed.

Whatever faith I had in myself and my own abilities is gone only to be replaced with self doubt, always looking to others for affirmation and a feeling that whatever happens bad in my life is my fault and whatever good happens, well, the credit goes to my "Higher Power", not me. In spite of all this one fact is certain however. When I am in AA I don't drink. That is the reason I went in the first place. I had a drinking problem. Now I don't. So I still wish to go to AA but I don't want to get sucked back into the unthinking and damaging rhetoric. That's why the article by Joe Berenbaum entitled, "For Those Who Still Wish to Go..." is so important to me. I just printed off a copy for myself and intend to read it regularly. His suggestions about using the AA group only as a social support system while personally designing a plan that works FOR ME is superb!

I am a female and for a long time have felt frustrated at the overwhelmingly male slant of the "program". I will be a regular visitor to your web site and want to encourage you to continue punching holes in the so-called "AA way of life". The AA "message" is full of falsehoods and twisted logic and does not hold up under scrutiny and careful investigation. Keep up the good work.

Darlene in St. Louis

AA Member wants AA Deprogramming off the Internet

I don't even know what you are promoting, but your bullshit has no business being anywhere near any recovering alcoholic. Whatever you are promoting could mean death for an alcoholic, and I, along with many other AA people wish you would stop. Take your trash elsewhere.

-anonymous AA member

Dear anonymous AA member:

How about if you take yourself away from my "trash". Nobody is forcing you to read anything. If you don't mind, I'm going to post your letter in the next mail section. I'll keep your identity secret, but will title it: AA member wants AA Deprogramming off the Internet

It's a rather amusing concept.

-Apple

Ex-member describes AA shunning

Hello, Apple,

Thank-you very much for your site, it has been the greatest relief to me. I will be two years sober on the 4th of February, although I haven't been to a meeting for about five weeks now. On New Year's Day this year I tried to kill myself by taking a very large dose of prescribed medication. I am not laying the blame for the state I was in at AA's door, but I am very, very relieved to be away from "The Fellowship".

I read through your site and pretty much agreed with everything. I am still recovering from my first year of sobriety 99/2000, in which I feel I was psychologically raped by an extremely manipulative AA guru. I am still recovering from this guilt and fear that I have bummed off my Higher Power and of course I am terrified that this is the start of a slip.

After parting company from said sponsor in April last year, I changed all my meetings and attended ones in the center of London. However, I continually chanced upon local AAs all the time. I was always extremely hurt by their complete lack of social skills. Invariably, my "Hello, how are you?" was met by a petrified frown, a slow tilt of the head, and the same reply every time: "I haven't seen you at any meetings."

Still, I persevered - after all, I am the problem, right? And I just got completely sick and tired of being pressured into taking three hours off each day - (an hour to get there, an hour at the meeting and an hour back) to listen to pathologically selfish people talking about themselves. All this high-minded Sharing For The Newcomer is largely non-existent in London, and was only ever really present at meetings where there was a high proportion of American AAs.

I have been through the 12 steps. I have completely prostrated myself and bared my soul to roomfuls of people who, sadly, turned out to be, at heart, just not very nice. I feel embarrassed, scared, doomed, guilty and arrogant for daring to break away.

I'm especially glad to read that you respect AA in a lot of ways too. So do I. Like the dysfunctional family that nurtured me in my childhood, so I feel some instances of gladness and fondness amid all the misery too.

But nothing can eradicate my experience of the North London AA fellowship. It is a toxic legion of Patronising Intrusive Gossiping Shits. P.I.G.S.

Good luck,
Simon

AA member offers hearty debate

What a lousy and unusable piece of trash!!! Thanks for nothing.

Looking for support but not in AA

Hi there.
First of all, I want to thank you for being so public and articulate in your opposition to the 12-step "it's my way or the highway, you pathetic moron" approach. Although I was not comfortable with your sarcastic tone or snide use of Hitler as an example, I do think your arguments are well founded, well supported, and completely on target. I know many people have been / believe they have been helped tremendously (dare I say, "saved"?) by AA, OA, NA, etc., but I also know that I never felt comfortable there. Instead I felt like an outsider at a cult meeting, looking into the serene faces of people to whom I couldn't relate. Worse, I landed there because I was in a serious situation and really did need help. I just didn't need to be told that if their program wasn't comfortable to me then I was obviously "constitutionally dishonest", morally defective and hopeless. Even if I were deemed worthy enough to succeed there, the idea that those folks presume to have the right to insult and dismiss others in that way is truly frightening.

So thank you for letting me know that I'm not the only one who sees these danger signs.

Just one question... do you know where else I can go for the social support I used to get there, without the "take what you can and leave the rest [even if the rest includes your own judgements, doubts and feelings" crap? For the record I'm in New York.

Thanks!
S.

Hello S.
For social support of a therapeutic nature, you can try seeking out a group therapy experience. For women, there are two counseling centers in my area which offer group therapy, perhaps there is something similar in yours.

Alternatively, to be around people, and make friends "earth person" style, you can join an althletic organization, a professional organization, a public speaking group or a civics organization. There are also many churches out there with varying philosophies.

Good luck!
Apple of AA Deprogramming.

The battle of the AA Gurus

Hey Apple,
I can't tell you how relieved I am to have found your site. The only reason I found you was that I was thinking about going into an AA chat room and finding out about some meetings here in San Diego (I quit going in '97). Thanks loads for being there--you reminded me of why I quit going and I might have ended up back in those hellholes they call meetings and rooms. I spent about eight hours yesterday between your site and the Rational Recovery site.

You touched upon many things that I didn't feel was right about the rooms. One funny incident you reminded me of was a room I was in and there were two competing "gurus" vying for dominance. One guy, Jeff, an eleven year dry scribe, and the other, Smoky, a five year genius, were clearly battling it out for the title of Supreme Leader of that shithole of a little room in a crappy part of town. Jeff, clearly showing his years as a master manipulator, tried to win Smoky over by publicly praising Smoky's good deeds and quoting his "insights". Smoky would have none of it however, he'd stomp around the room while Jeff was pontificating, rattling empty chairs and banging around ashtrays and Big Books. I didn't stick around long enough to see who won.

There was also lots of things I saw and heard that weren't funny. The lack of compassion was the most glaring example. I remember an old man who told of slowly going blind and he got the stock slogan "God's will", and another guy who was probably no more than 30 years old who told the room he had a serious form of cancer and got the same slogan. Bet they were feeling "grateful". I also experienced the homosexual predators and the silent treatment because I was unable to speak out at meetings because I get extremely anxious at public speaking.

But I did meet a few good people. My sponsor was a good guy who warned me about many of the negative aspects of the program, as was his wife. I met others also who I could instinctively tell were different from the rest of the flock. Seems like the more visible and vocal the member, the more fucked-up they were personally.

Anyway, I could keep rambling but you get the idea. And thanks for referring to the Rational Recovery website, just going through it yesterday made an incredidible amount of sense (going to pick up the book today). Keep up the good work!

Sincerely,
DW