Saved in the nick of time!

Thank God (as I understand him - wink), that I found your site before it was too late.

I joined AA 2 weeks ago, at the suggestion of my shrink, family, and close friends, following the most recent in a series of depression spawned drinking binges. At first I was elated that at last I had found the solution to all my problems, and reveled in the acceptance I received from the group. But then little things began happening that triggered the "bullshit" buzzer in my mind. There were the snide and demeaning remarks about newcomers made by some of the "elders" that I happened to overhear. The lack of concern over really helping people just when they needed it most (I kept one drunk from driving off, probably saving someone's life in the process, when no one else there would, and was reprimanded for it later). And finally, being told that all the good deeds I'd done in my life were negated because I took pride in them and told somebody about them. Suddenly I found that now I felt worse than before I had joined!

Something was wrong here, and I was going to get to the bottom of it, so I started searching the internet for more information. I had no luck under the heading "Alcoholics Anonymous", just more of the same self-promotional spam. Then I put the word "brainwashing" in front of it, and presto! Now, thanks to your pages and the others that you recommended, my mind is free to find the real causes behind my depression and subsequent drinking problem. By the way, it's most interesting to note that at present, I am not depressed, nor have I been drinking, and feel no compulsion to do so in the near future, and yet I've missed several meetings. How is that possible? I was so "hopeless" before. Hmmmm....

Gary

(Hi, I'm Gary, and I'm NOT an alcoholic! I simply choose not to drink because it messes up my mind and body, and prevents me from doing the positive things that I'd really like to do in my life.)

Contrary opinions dismissed with a famous catch-all AA phrase...

Without AA, I would have never found the inner peace to reconnect to my own spirituality. AA works only for those who work it.

Hi there... glad to hear AA worked for you. The last line of your brief e-mail is something that is frequently heard in meetings. It is yet another of AA's constructs which keeps the program looking perfect, and the unsuccessful individual looking unwilling or lethargic. That simply isn't true. I have explained this from a multitude of angles, but have experienced that those who love AA will go to any lengths to protect the program, as they were trained to do while under its influence. So be it.
Apple

Out of the meeting rooms and into the fresh air!

Dear Apple,
Thank you for opening the door. I have 10 years in and out of AA. Never felt comfortable with it, but backed with counselors and treatment centers admonishments that 12 steps were the only way to go I unhappily came and went, came and went. For about two years I have thought and repeatedly told myself, surely I am not the only one who feels as I do. Increasing self doubt, ridgity, and fear of making my own decisons helped to keep me trapped. A trap of cyclic depression and an unwillingness to stand on my own two feet. Learned helplessness slowly took me down a road that deep inside me I just knew could not be right. The internal struggle and turmoil was hellish.

And something happened Apple. I decided it was okay to be a heretic. That it was more than OK to remain sober without AA, even if it meant less human contact. I am capable of giving myself my own positive feedback without towing AA party line and feeling nauseated at how I was indeed compromising my own integrity. My mental health has come a long way since I found your site. The loneliness I sometimes feel now is more fleeting knowing that there are many folks who came and went and stayed sober. How refreshing and life affirming to see you work so hard to speak out. You know lady, you touched my llife in a postive way that continues to open my eyes.

No longer anonymous,
C.B.

Some words from a like-minded fellow

Checking out your site it's great -- will pass it along.

No mistake about it--AA is dangerous and deadly. Over the past 6 decades freedom of speech has been influenced by money---mainly the medical, psychological big dollar makers. Its been long known if you throw enough money into a project you usually get wanted results--atomic bombs etc., rich AA people have taken a toll on the great USA anonymously -- just as instructed (programmed). Good to see your site making heads turn. Lord knows I've been in enough AA meetings where if you speak your mind--better have a gun for self defense cause you'll be machinegunned down. I've known for some time that AA was deadly--bullets are their words--disagree, you'll be attacked in all sorts of ways. Good to see you have enough balls to run this web site-it needed to be done-keep it going!!!!!

Reading all the smart comments, opinions makes me want to go back to college--to sharpen my mind.

In the meantime I'll do things that help sharpen it--thanks for the help!

Welcome back to reality... I've been waiting for you

My God, this website is incredible. I had no idea that there were so many people out there completely dissatisfied with AA I thought that I was some sort of imbecile because I just couldn't stop thinking during every friggin' meeting, "THIS IS BULLSHIT." I honestly thought that my only two choices were AA or broke and drunk in a gutter somewhere. I have spent almost the entirety of the last two days looking up information on the web and elsewhere for alternatives to AA because, frankly, I would rather drink every day for the rest of my life than attend one more depressing and, yes, creepy meeting. I just didn't realize there were so many other choices, such as Rational Recovery, Moderation Management, etc. etc.

My father was in AA for almost ten years and about five years ago he just stopped going. He's never had a "relapse" or anything like that.... occasionally i would ask him why he didn't go to meetings anymore and he would just answer, "well... i probably SHOULD go to meetings but... " and then he'd just trail off. Never answering the question of course. Now I know why, because, for the most part, MEETINGS SUCK!

And you are COMPLETELY RIGHT about many of the men at the meetings being creeps. I know because I am a man and a lot of these guys would broadly hint that the only reason they went to meetings was because they wanted to "get with" the young female newcomers! I'm still completely flabbergasted and amazed that this website exists and you are disseminating THE TRUTH about AA. Thank you and keep it up!

(please withhold name to insure overzealous AA members don't get me! thank you!)

Ahhh... the sweet sound of honesty

It's nice to know that I am not the only one who has actually felt more isolated in AA than before. The "recovery" program, while I admit that it has given me abstinence, has increased me low self-esteem, self-hatred and increased those fears of "fitting in". It doesn't take long in AA to determine the "proper" answers and the hostility directed toward nonconformists. Although probably mostly well intentioned, the atmosphere is one of rigidity and the stifling of individuality. A place where freedom of speech is not OK.

I was so bewildered after 7 years of sobriety and the following of all suggestions to find myself miserable, desperate and suicidal. The unspoken message I received was that if I was unhappy or had problems it indicated that I had a bad program and was not spiritually fit. The other message I got was that I HAD to be a member of AA. There really was no choice. Death or AA. Ultimately I chose death and drank... but didn't die. Newly sober again.. attending AA because of probation I just can't seem to get with it. I am abstinent but all the cliche's ring hollow in my ears. And I feel as if I hear one more smug, ego-ridden member proudly repeat something they learned to parrot 15 years ago I'll scream. You give me some hope that there might be another alternative other than the old AA or death choice.

Thanks.

A letter from a thinker who was shamed by the herd...

Hello -

I enjoyed your site. I generally don't empathize with the harsh anti-AA attitudes many alternative sites exude but I understand why it is there. I probably don't have the same opinion because I got out of AA quickly.

I agree with your general appraisal of AA. I did not like the seemingly plush but heavy-handed nature of AA in my experience from it's outset. At a bad time, I stupidly sought help from counselors at work (I teach at a university with an excellent health coverage system) and eventually was encouraged to contact another professor who was 'in AA.' Though being some odd 30 years younger, I am 29, I tried to identify with him, go to meetings, and place myself in his hands.

The meetings, to me, though seemingly filled with well meaning people, were crazy places. I found it odd that a fully tenured full professor so eagerly referred to his thinking ability and degree, with other members, as a 'Th.D.' Some sort of clever debasement that he, and of course I, were thinkers. Thinking being a skill apparently detrimental to AA membership. I went through long discussions with him and others about how thinking wouldn't solve 'it', I had to 'surrender' to some god I have never known or understood, and that my natural analytical abilities, which had gotten me out of low income project at 18 and to a teaching job at a major university, had to be let go.

Meanwhile, I was ditching work early all this time to fight through traffic to attend meetings of dubious value. I 'slipped' several times. Truth be told the meetings, to me, provided no real answer to what I was looking for, how to avoid drinking, but rather filled my hours with dreary stories and associations with people whom I had no commonality. The ongoing message was to fall apart and surrender. When told by people they were powerless, I suggested that 'you did get yourself here didn't you?' Needless to say the response was chagrin and, literally, people running away from me in fear. Similarly, I was told to go to meetings with no women, so I could 'let it out better', whereas I responded that the first person I told I thought I had a problem was a close and understanding female friend and that women, to me, seemed like a pretty damn good motivation to not drink. I got a similar response. I was told numerous times that 'maybe you need to drink some more.' Very progressive thinking.

Being a naturalist and feeling most spiritual when I am outdoors I was told to 'pray to the waves' (my apartment is on the beach.) I found no solace in expecting a wave to save me. Finally it was suggested to me that I attend a certain group of meetings that were notorious for handling the problem cases, like me. (I had been with them for two months and was condemned a problem case.) In this group, men had to shave their facial hair and get short haircuts as a symbolic gesture and were expected to go to the group founder's house on Saturday afternoons (the group founder had like 20 dogs) to clean up the dog shit in his backyard so that we could play volleyball and softball all afternoon and eventually grill large numbers of hot dogs together. Apparently this would help to humble me. Even when I said that I wasn't in the habit of eating 'mystery meat' and might bring something else (I really had no plans of going and just wanted to get this guy off the phone) I heard a deep sigh on the phone and was told I just needed to 'humble' myself. The cult meter went off the scale and I decided I'd had enough.

I have not 'partaken' since that day, not out of fear I think, but more in a way of just realizing how silly all of this was getting. I still have to go see this one counselor on campus and have to lie to her that I hit AA meetings and talk to them for fear of what may go on my health record if I tell her I do not (she is a big 12 step advocate.) I do subscribe to another form of help called Rational Recovery (shhhhh! don't tell anyone.) So, a recommendation in this regard is that you place an evident link on your site telling people NOT to tell health coverage groups what is going on but rather to seek assistance on your own, unless you are going through serious withdrawal symptoms, and even then, insist on a physician who will place on your record 'excessive drinking' or some such rather than 'alcoholism.' Alcoholism is a dogmatic word that inherently in its construction intimates a lifestyle and has many levels of stereotyping in our society in both the secular, religious, and medicinal arenas.

Your site struck me as lacking in one regard, and I hope you can accept criticism, and that is the various reasons listed for drinking. The site regularly talks about victimization, dealing with problems, mental difficulties, etc., but ignores one fundamental reason for drinking. All of what you list is true and valid. However, consider me, my life is good, I am reasonably well off, and despite the difficulties that everyone goes through I have the pleasures of life available to me. I did not drink to escape. I drank alcohol simply because I liked it. We spend our lives trying to be happy and enjoy and for me this was one pleasure. I think the realization that drinkers drink because they want to is an important one.

At any rate, I thought I would share my AA experience. I commend you on what you have done. Don't listen to the bullshit that people hit you with (a la the shrink letter that attacked you) regarding venting anger or frustration with AA or not listing you or all your contributors intimate details so that they could be analyzed or evaluated by this shrink. This psychiatrist noted that he sees all the same anti-AA vehemence on so many alternative sites he views. My background is science, and often when a conclusion is correct it is arrived at from several sources. So, if so many people have the same vehemence, it is likely a valid and worthwhile conclusion.

Publish this letter on your site if you like, but I will trust you to not place my name. I have no desire to be drawn into this fight at this time nor do I desire the scorn that may be drawn if people run across my name. Besides, someone might decide to 'intervene' and 'save me' from my 'pink cloud' and I definitely have no desire of that. I believe the desire to stop drinking is largely a personal one, and that the decision is reached more often in solitude than anywhere else.

Again, I thank you for your efforts and if my story or thoughts provide any help I am doubly happy.

He likes AA, but acknowledges the DARK SIDE...

Tally Ho,
I have been sober 11 years and I have seen it all. I agree that there is a dark side to the fellowship and that like all books of significance (such as the Bible) folks will see what they want to see in it and the Big Book. Fortunately I have a sponsor who pointed out all this "evil" stuff from the beginning so I have been able to avoid most of it. I live in Malibu and every year the hustlers and the predators move through, and since actions speak louder than words you can spot them after a while. My list of friends also includes some fairly important men and women in the recovery movement. (One of my close woman friends founded an entire genre and has written 12 books on the subject). I just hope that your site serves a positive purpose and shows folks the flip side of the coin. I was a drunk not because I had any serious moral flaws or because I was a victim of emotional and sexual abuse. I was a drunk because I did not know how to live sober. Thanks to AA now I do, and I am, as the book says pretty happy too. As a DRUG AND ALCOHOL counselor to young teens I show them every aspect of recovery both good and bad and I may refer them here so that they can get a balanced perspective of the fellowship. As for you it is not important what AA does or does not do. It is important that you get the help you need. I wish you the best.

I'm happy to have gotten your mail. I hope that those teens you mention do visit AA Deprogramming, and have a chance to see the flip side of the coin early on. They come in with much less life experience, and are even more vulnerable because of it. Personally speaking, it's hard enough to have ended up "in recovery", but to now be "in recovery from recovery".... now that takes the cake! Back then I wasn't strong enough to stand up and say.... "Well, thousands of people may be agreeing on something, but that does not make it right". Today, I can do that. And guess what, once the ball gets rolling, more and more like minded folks start coming out of the woodwork!!
-Apple of AA deprogramming

It's time to get your brain out of hock.